We are 110% on the right track. I know I alluded to the nest cleaning behavior here and other places, but today I caught it on camera. The Lightning Maroon was getting into it too, but the male PNG White Stripe Maroon Clown was doing the bulk of the substrate clearing. Of course, we know people who’ve had clownfish pairs do this behavior for months, or even years. Still, based solely on my clown pairs, you don’t see the female doing any of this unless she’s actually in the mood. I didn’t catch the Lighting Maroon doing any cleaning – I think my getting closer to the tank this evening kinda put “her” off. This is at least the third time I’ve seen them both going at it around the 6:00 PM hour…normally right when we’re having dinner. At any rate, enjoy the videos!
Forgive my wife’s laughing at the start of this one – our son was tasting lemonade for the first time and we’re pretty sure, based on the hysterical facial contortions he was making, it’s a love-hate relationship.
- About The Lightning Project
- Inventory of F1 PNG Lightning and White Stripe Maroon Clownfish
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, BZLM1
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, BZLM2
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, FW1
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM10
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM11
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM12
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM13
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM14
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM15
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM16
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM17
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM18
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM19
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM20
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM3
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM4
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM5
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM6
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM7
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM8
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM9
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, MD1
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, MWP3
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, WS17
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon, EC1
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon, GL1
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, BZWS1
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, BZWS2
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, BZWS3
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS10
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS11
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS12
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS13
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS14
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS15
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS16
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS4
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS5
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS6
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS7
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS8
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS9
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon, EC2
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon, FW2
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon, GL2
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon, MD2
- Lightning Breeding Directive
- Lightning Maroon Clownfish Links
- Home
- About The Lightning Project
- Inventory of F1 PNG Lightning and White Stripe Maroon Clownfish
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, BZLM1
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, BZLM2
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, FW1
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM10
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM11
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM12
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM13
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM14
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM15
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM16
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM17
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM18
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM19
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM20
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM3
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM4
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM5
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM6
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM7
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM8
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, LM9
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, MD1
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, MWP3
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish, WS17
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon, EC1
- F1 PNG Lightning Maroon, GL1
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, BZWS1
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, BZWS2
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, BZWS3
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS10
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS11
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS12
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS13
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS14
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS15
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS16
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS4
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS5
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS6
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS7
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS8
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish, WS9
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon, EC2
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon, FW2
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon, GL2
- F1 PNG White Stripe Maroon, MD2
- Lightning Breeding Directive
- Lightning Maroon Clownfish Links
If you’ve been paying attention to the pairing experiments and attempts I made with the PNG Maroon pairs (the Lightning + White Stripe Pair and the other normal PNG WS pair) you’ll recall that in both cases, I kept the males in small isolated chambers within the larger female’s tank for several months, and yet each time, introduction of the male would ultimately result in malevolent rejection of the male by the female. Eventually, through suggestions including a particularly interesting one from Mitch May, I wound up getting both pairs to work. In part, I attribute this to a “role reversal”, what I’m calling the female flip, wherein for a short period of time, I allowed the “male” fish full access to the tank, while the “female” can only sit and watch. In both cases, the change to this technique for only a few days or a week (I can’t remember…I’d have to look back) resulted in pairs that while initially appearing shaky, are now solidly bonded pairs.
You may also recall that I had many other Maroon Clowns on site. Well, the Gold Stripe Maroon pair spawned in the last week but it was a small nest that disappeared quite quickly. I’m guessing that this may have been the first spawn between the old female GSM (she was the one spawning with the PNG male that is now with the Lightning) and the Gold Stripe Male I had sent from the west coast. Regardless, that pairing was a breeze. One of the other normal White Stripe Pairs was sold off this week, and I still have one other I’m trying to find a home for as well now that they’ve served their purpose in the project. Meanwhile, the Labrador Maroon, Frank’s big ‘ole Maroon, remained unpaired as it was, for a long time, the fish being used to keep the Lightning Maroon a male. All attempts to pair the Labrador with a medium sized white stripe have failed.
Now, it’s important to note that these fish have now been in contact for maybe a couple months or more, the smaller of the two was given to me by a hobbyist who had tried to use it as the “female” in a pair (the failed “male” in that failed pairing is now mated with the larger Maroon that Debbie from the Twin Cites contributed). So maybe it’s too late, maybe this “female” is actually a female, and thus, will continue to be rejected by the Labrador? You might think that until you watched how desperately the smaller maroon acts out the male behaviors and wants to be with the Labrador. Well, the Labrador is having none of this.
The other evening I tried a normal introduction, releasing the smaller fish into the main tank. It instantly dove to the flower pot occupied by the Labrador Maroon and started doing submissive twitching an the cheek kissing that seems to be the normal behavior for a Maroon Clownfish who’s trying to appease a potential mate. Well, 1.5 minutes in, the little maroon was shredded, and yet it was STILL trying desperately to be with the Labrador.
So I quickly pulled out a 4 gallon drum style fishbowl…I had these on hand for use as kriesels back when I was breeding Harlequin Filefish (Oxymonacanthus longirostris). I threw it in the tank, put the Labrador Maroon in it, and got it rigged up so that there is some water flow but the big Maroon is trapped. This will be yet another test of the “female flip”…will a week of isolation like this temper the Labrador’s mean streak and allow these two Maroon clowns to be finally firmly paired up?
Here’s video of how it’s going a day in.
It has been a LONG time since I tested the water on the Lightning Maroon’s tank. The Birdsnest Corals are all growing, some quite rapidly. I already hacked off a dozen+ frags on the “Sour Apple” Seriatopora as it was starting to shade out smaller corals. The pH swings I was experiencing seemed to have lessened in severity. While the pH probe seemed to be still getting valid measurements, it seems a calibration may have helped. Part of the issue may have also been temperature related – installation of an Air Conditioner in the room helped temperature more in check, which may have slowed photosynthesis a little, and been one more thing to help reduce the pH extremes that the Apex was reporting. Finally, I reduced the frequency I was dosing C-Balance 2 part, but I may have to step it back up after getting these readings.
pH (Seachem) – 8.1
pH (Apex) – 8.22
Alkalinity (Seachem) – 2.5 meq/L
Calcium (Salifert) – 360 ppm
Magnesium (Salifert) – 1170 ppm
Nitrate (Salifert) – between 2 and 5 ppm
So, probably a water change and staying a little more on top of a daily C-Balance dosing regime ought to keep things in line. Frankly, I was surprised the Nitrates weren’t higher, but perhaps the very low-level Vodka dosing is doing the trick?
Just like it sounds, nothing but picture upon picture after picture of the Lightning Maroon and its new mate, the proven male PNG White Stripe Maroon Clownfish (also a SEASMART-caught Maroon fish Fisherman’s Island). The pair is definitely becoming more bonded with each day. Given that the Gold Stripe Maroon pair (where the Lightning’s mate used to be actively spawning) just spawned for the first time (as far as I can say with certainty) yesterday, well, perhaps that bodes well for a “sooner” rather than “later” first spawn for this pair too. I’ve certainly upped the feedings (say hello to more PE MYSIS Mrs. Lightning).
Here’s a gallery of the pix!1
So I think many of the regular readers of the Lightning Project know I have an outspoken stance on breeding. Specifically, that preservation of natural biodiversity trumps the creation of captive-originated ornamental forms and the intentional and unintentional hybridization of wild forms. Not going to get on that soapbox today (I’m busy doing that on the MBI), but in doing my “homework” I came across an interesting publication. More on that in a moment.
The concept I was trying to find some documentation on relates to what we’d call “foundation stock”. Foundation stock being the individuals used to create a new population of a species. In the case of species survival programs, foundation stock would be the wild collected specimens used in zoo breeding programs to maintain the captive population with the goal of arking the species and hopefully one day reestablishing wild populations. In the case of aquarium breeding, it’s no different..i.e. the 4 breeding pairs of Mccullochi Clownfish (Amphiprion mccullochi) owned by Ryan Dwyer are the 8 specimens that will be the ancestors of all future Mcc’s (unless the unlikely happens and more wild fish are brought into captivity).
There’s another way of looking at this question, a darker viewpoint. Functional extinction. This is a term I came across first when reviewing IUCN Red Lists (Banggai Cardinalfish anyone…still on that list as endangered). What “Functionally Extinct” means is that while the species still exists, the population is so small that from a breeding and genetics standpoint, it fails to have sufficient genetic diversity to prevent a total genetic meltdown (and ultimately, extinction). For example, you probably could not bring back a species of bird if there were only a single pair left – it would be termed functionally extinct. In such dire circumstances, actual intentional hybridization might be thrown out as a last-resort mechanism in the hopes that you could one day breed back to some approximation of the ancestral species, although in truth, you’ll never get back to the actual species.
At any rate, the document published by FAO (The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations) is part of the Fisheries and Aquaculture Department. Conservation of the genetic resources of fish: problems and recommendations provides general guidelines on minimum population sizes for short and long term captive maintenance, and actually explains, quite clearly, some very interesting talking points on inbreeding and genetic integrity. While this is all generalizations, here’s some interesting talking points:
- A minimal captive population size of 50, in equal sex ratios, randomly mating, will keep inbreeding at roughly 1%. At this population size, the total population will lose 1/4 of it’s genetic variations in 20 to 30 generations.
- An interesting aside to the first point, the number of individuals in a small population (let’s say 25) is roughly equivalent to the number of generations that population can exist while maintaining a reasonable level of “fitness” (so 25 generations if the total population is limited to 25 individuals in each generation, as well as the other stipulations of equal sex ratios and random matings).
- It is argued that 500 individuals is the minimum necessary to maintain a long term captive population that loses variations to genetic drift at a rate compensated for by new variations gained through mutation.
- The most interesting one I’ll quote verbatim – “the number of founders in a colony, so long as it is greater than about five individuals, is not nearly as important as the long-term maintenance size of the colony (Nei et al., 1975; Denniston, 1978). That is, a single bottleneck event followed by rapid growth to a large size, say 2Ne greater than 500, does relatively little damage, compared, that is, to a chronically small Ne.”. Or to try to paraphrase – a captive population started with only 5 individuals can still be enough (in a fish) to potentially establish a stable captive population, so long as that population is brought up to at least 500 breeding individuals in short order.
So what does that all mean? Well, for starters, it means that even with only 8 founding individuals, the captive population of Amphiprion mccullochi could be very stable and with us for a long time so long as the fish is actively bred by many people and it’s done in as few generations as possible. Pile on intentional avoidance of any inbreeding in the first generation or two, and the future could be very bright. And on the flipside, even if the population of breeding individuals was kept well below 500 (and it’s entirely possible that could happen), the generation time for that to be a problem, as measured in years, could be centuries or more (given that you can spread out the generation time to be 10-20 years in a clownfish if you plan for that).
How does that all relate to the Lightning Maroon and it’s PNG mate (and neighboring pair)? Well, if nothing else, it means I really should get one more PNG white stripe maroon pair into the mix if I ever can, just to get above that foundation minimum of 5 😉
For a second time, the PNG Lightning Maroon Clown Fish has graced the pages of CORAL magazine. Admittedly, with what’s happened in the last 2 weeks, the article seems a bit outdated…but how could we have known where we’d be 2 months ago?!
I got my copy about a week ago – arguably I’m even more excited about the very interesting articles on breeding Latezonatus (my article, but couldn’t have put it together without the contributions of MANY listed in the credits), accidental hybridization (Julian Sprung) and multiple commentaries on “Designer” Fish. If you’re into Clownfish, if you’re into Breeding, this is an issue not to be missed.
I took some time on Wednesday, July 27th, 2011, and Thursday (the 28th) to shoot these two videos that better show the behavior of this pair during daylight hours. The first, from the 27th, was towards late evening when I find these fish rather retiring and shy – I had to use Nutramar Ova to get them more active. The second was more mid-day on Thursday, a time at which the fish are more out and about. ONE very interesting side note before I close with the two videos. Thursday evening, while feeding our son dinner, I noticed both the PNG WS Male, and the Lightning Maroon, briefly engage in nest site cleaning behavior, nipping at the back wall of the tank. Of course, that could mean anything.
On to the vids:
That’s right. Officially put all those impatient and uninformed critics out of business. It was fun pointing out how you were wrong – a great distraction while I patiently, and methodically, worked to do this RIGHT, which is very different from simply doing it “FAST”.
Of course, it did take a leap of faith. Here’s how things went down. Following the success with the pairing downstairs, I switched up the upstairs pairing and placed the Lightning Maroon in isolation for a few days, starting on July 13th. We had a fish club meeting here on the 15th, but I didn’t feel like we had quite waited long enough. I worked overtime the entire weekend, as in waking to sleeping, and time got away from me…before I knew it Monday, July 18th, 2011 had arrived. I had “contaminated” the system containing my Percula juveniles with a couple new fish – while not worried for the Perculas, I refuse to take any risks with the Lightning. That meant that I had inadvertently ruled out having any culled percs on hand to use as dither fish.
So on Monday, July 18th, I let the Lightning Maroon out of isolation and back into the main tank. There wasn’t a big flurry of aggression as I had seen in the past, so I kept an eye on it. Still, by evening, the two fish were at opposite ends of the tank. I tried to catch either one out briefly, but got sucked back into work and ultimately forgot about the pair. Late that night, after the lights had gone out, I noticed that they were not fighting, and there had not been any damage to the smaller male. This wasn’t the first time they cohabitated without damaging aggression, but the male was pinned in the upper corner, out of sight and out of mind.
Tuesday, July 19th, found me once again busy with work but also busy with preparing for a trip to work, and ultimately, the MBI Breeder’s Workshop in the vicinity of Detroit, MI. After everything else was done, I finally turned my attention to the Lightning Maroon’s tank, under the assumption that I’d be trying to catch out either fish to separate them for the trip.
It was that point at which I shot the video above. While the fish had remained separated all day, there was still no damage to the male. The behavior I saw, the more controlled and non-violent pair bonding behavior, and the close vicinity in which the Lightning Maroon allowed the smaller male PNG Maroon to be, was something I had never witnessed between these two fish before.
However, this behavior is what I saw in the other White Stripe pairs I had managed to create. You see, it was experience that told me what to look for. So while outsiders may have harshly criticized me for not “rushing” the pairing of the Lightning Maroon along, I will toot my own horn and say I was very wise to practice with OTHER fish that did not matter as much as the Lightning Maroon.
Still, come Wednesday morning, I considered the options one more time. Things could turn ugly. I’d be out of town for almost 6 full days. At some point, as a breeder, you may find yourself in a position that requires a leap of faith, and that is what I did. That, and left very explicit instructions for Frank, one of only a handful of extremely talented and capable aquarists, that if ANY damage was seen, to separate the fish immediately. 3 days of not hearing anything had me calling Frank saying “I hope no news is good news”. Saturday morning, at the MBI Workshop, I ended my talk with the “reveal” of the above video. Yup, they saw it first. Pays to go to the only marine ornamental breeding convention for hobbyists in country, if not the hemisphere or more.
Well, a week later, I can tell you that the leap of faith panned out. Not a scratch on the little male PNG Maroon, and this evening, after returning home from a very long road trip, I took a moment to watch the pair a few times. While still a young pair, they are quickly moving into more solidified roles, perhaps helped by the fact that the male was actively spawning with the GSM female I have downstairs before I separated that pair.
The course from here is VERY clear and very easy. Just feed the heck out of them, then raise the temp by 1 or 2 degrees F, and hope that kicks them into their first spawn. Once again, we find ourselves in a waiting game. You can’t rush nature.
So it’s been a busy few weeks. I mentioned back on June 25th that I thought I had found success pairing up the White Stripe Maroons, but it was preliminary and I didn’t want to get hopes up. A trip to the Florida Keys prevented me from sharing this first update, which is video I shot on July 15th of the “spare” PNG White Stripe Maroons, initially sent as two same-sized males, now fully paired and happy
So the jist of how this was pulled off was to separate them, feeding the selected female 3 times per day, the male once per day, with the male in a net breeder / basket type setup. This forced a size differential to develop. I found that if I took the male out and placed him in the tank, he was normally beaten pretty quickly. While I did try the use of dither fish (culled small juvenile perculas), it did not seem that was what actually did the trick. It seemed that it took 2-3 days of isolating the “female” in the net, and letting the selected male have free reign, that tempered the female’s aggression and helped seal the deal.
The short result of that analysis? Well, there is a size differential in the Lightning and her male. And I have one other pair of Maroons that remains unpaired. What did I do next? You’ll have to wait for the next post.
Ah, this brings back memories…good old Reef Central (from which I’ve been banned since 2006 for being a “commercial seller”, which I’m not nor was at the time in question, and in fact I was following ALL the published rules; got the smackdown for what the mods called an “unwritten rule”; well more precisely for disagreeing with my suspension over an unwritten rule. Figures). An interesting forum conversation was brought to my attention by a forum reader, and well, since I can’t post on Reef Central, I’ve pulled the quotes I felt a desire to respond to, and have done so here.
davocean – I recall reading that one of the breeding pair, and maybe that very one there died, but I’m not absolutely certain on that.
MP – there never was a “breeding pair”. There was a large female that was shipped with the Lightning Maroon which pretty quickly got sick, and never recovered. The Lightning Maroon shown above is alive and well
davocean – What a lot of needless drama in that link that would have been nice if he edited that crud out.
MP – I am guessing this is in reference to my rebuttal over the recent “character assassination attempt” that was beyond baseless?
davocean – I know maroons are fussy and all, but it’s hard for me to believe that much time and dificulty to pair.
MP – it’s “easy” if you have the right mates. With PNG being shut down, and with the fish I had requested never arriving, I am forced to go the hard way. It is conceivable that could possibly have the Lightning Maroon paired in as little as 72 hours if I ordered up a couple small, captive bred white stripe maroon of random origin. But in order to keep the PNG bloodline, I have to work with “larger” males, which makes pairing difficult.
davocean – I can’t say I disagree w/ the trolls comments, or at least some of them, mainly being distracted, which was kind of obvious when it turned into an ecoxotic/panorama review.
MP – Well for the “Troll”, that allegation of distraction was the fundamentally incorrect fact that I had somehow started up an Orchid Business in the last year. Sorry, but wrong decade. For me, the Ecoxotic setup was a distraction…a welcome diversion from the slow progress and lack of other news, since the project was, for many months, basically put in a holding pattern while trying to get the appropriate mates from PNG. I was happy to have something to write about when there was nothing going on with the breeding part of the project.
davocean – I could only read/bear so much, as far as I could tell the lightning is badly scarred/wounded, and not paired up yet?
MP – Obviously you really picked and chose what you read. Yes, the Lighting Maroon did at one point get beat up by a Centropyge argi a while back; it happened while I was out of town – I would’ve noticed the issue immediately, whereas my 2 caretakers didn’t. I didn’t expect the first dorsal to heal. The Lightning Maroon has fully recovered from the fin damage it sustained.
davocean – didn’t catch the angel fish part, but that leads me to wonder why he didn’t have a cover on his tank? I think if I paid that much $$ or had such a rare clown I would have every angle covered for it’s safety, but oh well, not my clown.
MP – actually there were “two” covers on the tank. The egg crate “jail” that housed the Lightning Maroon to allow it to interact with, but not have physical contact with, another much larger generic WS Maroon, had a top on it. And then, resting on top of that, was a second screen top. To this day I do not know how the Lightning Maroon escaped from jail and got into the main tank.
davocean – The part I don’t get also is his pairing and purposely throwing in weak clowns he intended on culling back on top the potential mate to add some sort of confusion, or I guess make the potential mate seem more desireable? I don’t know, seems an odd way to pair.
MP – once again, you seem to pick and choose what you read. This pairing idea was fully explained in an earlier post, and yes, I think you have the general jist. The smaller clowns are meant to act as a distraction, spreading out the aggression of the female, and if it really works, it causes the female to accept the male, in order to have help driving off the remaining intruders. It is not my technique, it was shared with me a while back by Mitch May (Booyah’s Reef). And it may have actually worked too. But here’s where you got it wrong – I did not test this technique with the Lightning Maroon, nor it’s mate. I tested it with the other 2 PNG Maroons I’ve had on hand, which were imported at the same size, both “males”. It has taken a little over a year to push enough size divergence through rationing food to the smaller one, to get enough of a difference that the proper social structure would come to fruition.
davocean – I think I would have prefered the lightning be a female anyways, so maybe it will work out for the better.
MP – Several people have felt this way, and in this opinion, there is no right or wrong – both sides have merit so it the determination is made by the project goals, and thus, how best to meet those goals. There are pros and cons on both sides. For me, the circumstances over the first year suggested I keep it male, as others have responded – it would allow me to pair it with any other PNG Maroon captured, including a large female Lightning Maroon if such a fish were found and made it’s way to me. However, with no fish coming out of PNG, I was forced to use only fish I had on hand, which is why at the start of this year I had to change my battle plans and push the Lightning female. It took a year+ on the other PNG Maroon pair, I only “got it done” last week and there’s still no spawning. Given that I started a year later with the Lightning Maroon, no telling how long it’s going to take for it to turn female.
Whip316 – wouldnt you want it to stay male? doesnt most of the better genes come from the males anyway?
MP – There are rumors that striping pattern is inherited from the male. I don’t really believe that, but when the goal was to keep this fish male, that was one of the reasons. If it turned out that this were actually true, wow, that would suck for the project now that the Lightning is going female. Frankly, I *think* these rumors stem from the fact that the wild Picasso Percula used to start the entire Picasso Percula line from ORA was the male in the pair. I can say with certainty that female Picassos have plenty of genetic input in mating as well.
davocean – I was just voicing personal opinion on wanting the standout clown to be a nice big fat egg laying female, and males are kinda more vulnerable since they are the ones that have to prove themselves worthy to the much more aggro female.
MP – ah, but there’s the other issue. Female Maroons tend to darken and/or loose stripes. The Lightning Maroon may cease to be a “showpiece” in a few year’s time. So I’m taking LOTS of pictures now, while it still looks great. It has already darkened considerably however.
Deangelr – I agree with your logic as well.. If I were Matt I would be patient and let biology take its course. I would leave the lighting in the tank and put a small maroon in a breeder box in the same tank. It would be visible to the lighting but safe from it also. Every couple of weeks I would attempt to pair them.. Eventually the lighting will realize that is ok to turn female and should do so..
MP – I chuckle deangelr – the proven fertile male PNG Maroon is in a specimen cup wiht holes drilled in it. Has been for months now. I believe there is video of it when I first introduced it. You have basically described what I am doing.
deangelr – IME with maroon clowns, they are actually one of the easiet clowns to pair. A very large maroon and a very small maroon will pair up instantly. At least they did for me in my 2 tries.
MP – again, that’s what I alluded to earlier saying “I could do this in 72 hours”. With the right mates, pairing Maroons should be easy. With less ideal mates (in terms of size) it becomes tough. I have many other maroons here so I can work with them and learn from them, and indeed, they are not easy to pair if there isn’t a big size difference. Also, GSMS are fundamentally different, and far easier going. Experiences with Gold stripes don’t really translate to White Stripes.
davocean – I’ve always felt maroons are one of the hardest to pair, but that just been my exp.
MP – wait, didn’t you just write above, “I know maroons are fussy and all, but it’s hard for me to believe that much time and dificulty to pair.”? Which is it davocean?
davocean – Well I guess that is why I was thinking my first thought, since my last female maroon that was fairly large, killed the first 2 males(and they were tiny) before I could even grab a net. And this was w/ the breeder box trick. Now days I can read them a lil better and I totally agree breeder box intro is best.
MP – Looks like we’re all in agreement afterall…pairing white stripes can be tough indeed.
UPDATE – MP – and one more followup – it seems this blog post stirred the pot over on Reef Central. Good. The reason I responded here on TLP was a) because I can’t respond there and b) to set the record straight. I’m always open to having a dialog here on the project’s site (that’s what the comment system is for), but when MISINFORMATION is put out there by third parties, well, I’m well within reason to set the record straight by whatever means available. So if you’re posting factually incorrect information, expect to be called out on it. If you go on to propose opinions based on misinformation, doubly so.
And to the side commentary about how I handle “disagreement” Toddrtrex 😉 – I have no problems with anyone who “disagrees” with me, but I find it rather preposterous for someone to propose any type of opinion at all if they don’t even have the facts straight in the first place. If you’re going to criticize or comment, have the decency to make sure you’re well informed first.
Recent Comments